FYI - here is translation of TranStation Game Support's reply from Slovak into English language. There are totally 4 messages (she excused me once more & I was encouraging her to use TS Wiki forum in case they would have some new infromation source available).
Thank you very much for your inspiring mail.
We would like to provide the data, but unfortunately even we ourselves do not have them written in a form with which you would need for further work.
Sorry about that, because we would certainly like to give them for further processing.
If such a database will be created by us during the foreseeable future, we will contact you.
Thank you for your understanding and we wish you lots of fun with TrainStation.
I have been working on Contractor Station Street Sizes major update and as a last step I started to add contractor potrait images into the table. However they are taking too much vertical space (exactly above and under of text descriptions). I would like to have the table similar to your Themes page, but I don't know how have you done the elimination of vertical space wasting?
I don't think they're taking too much vertical space. The "extra" space there is just part of what MediaWiki does with images in tables. I played with those settings on my own page for a while, and I finally decided they were just going to stay that way. Sorry. :(
A few minor things:
Why are you setting margin to "0px auto"? 0px I understand. What is "auto" supposed to do?
You don't need a "br" after Wilma's photo. The text will automatically go after the image with frameless.
I recommend against setting the image widths in pixels. You've already set the column width to 18%. That will restrict the image size, too. Try to use % instead of px everywhere you can so your table looks the same on different size monitors.
My big pages use the "close=1" parameter on "reflist" because they have multiple reference lists. Since you have only one reference list, you can use just "reflist" without any parameters.
The total widths of your columns is 88%. Is that what you want?
The page looks good. All of the items above are minor points. Good job!
Hi Pella, thanks you for reply. I have already managed do deal with that 'vertical space wasting' (more or less) - the point was in understanding that column widths influence quite a lot of things :) .
So I have been experimenting a lot with different column configurations (e.g. 17% width for the 1st column seemed to work very good) to learn out how these works. I would say I have lerned quite a bit (at least that's what I hope anyway:))... The point is = if these column widths are set-up properly then it's no need to 'hack' it via br tags, etc.
As I finally got to adding all 3 columns with images I have found that the table's width is used as much as it is possible. If I would add just 1 more pixel the table would go insane (= need of horizontal scrolling which is #1 thing I want to avoid at all costs).
I regret to tell you that I have set up all widths configuration of Regular / Seasonal contractors tables via width limitations of 3 image columns (1st image column = 90 px images, 2nd image col = 110 px images, 3rd = 98 px images) and everything else work fine with this config (without any need for further column widths specification). I used that 3 images to manage all widths within both tables because I saw that columns could be made wider via column width config, but they can not be made smaller because that image doesn't allow it (so therefore I kept it at images).
Well, now I see I was completely wrong about that. Sorry, I didn't know :( ... I have to admit that I had VERY hard time to set up width limitions via images. I can't imagine how to switch it into percentual column values? I don't have any tools of that ... and manual experiments (which width works and which not) cause me real headache :-/ ...
- NOTE: Ha, I see now that I mismatched that two pages (see the note above:))... -
So back you list and back to the Contractor Station Street Sizes page. Well, I understand now everything, bullets 1, 2, 4, 5 are already corrected. However I have difficulties with bullet no. 3 (setting of widths via image pixels) as I have already described you above. Any help would be welcome!
One more note concerning bullet 3. In Contracts hub page I used that image pixel parameter also to limit image heights where it was necessary (e.g. Tour de France winner cup as Peter's final award). I don't even know how to restrict row heights via % parameter?
I don't have any tools for calculating percentages, either, except for a regular calculator. Remember that the total width is 670px. If you want to keep an image at 90px, then 90/670 = 13.43%, so set it to 14%. That should be pretty close to what you want, so go from there.
Image heights will adjust automatically with image widths. I don't know of any way to control them independently. As far as I know, the only way to control row height is with pixels. I often use style="line-height:200%;' to add more spacing between the images and text below the images. This helps keep the footnote references from "crashing" into the images.
So far, both tables on the Contracts page are using horizontal scrollbars. However, they're not scrolling very much, so you should be able to eliminate them with only a little bit of tweaking. Sometimes, though it's painful, the only way to fix it is to remove some data from your table. Yes, it *IS* possible to put too much data in a table. Those tables stretch the limit of usefulness as it is, so maybe you should consider that. Think about how useful each piece of information is to people who play the game, and make decisions based on that. A forum post that attracts attention from many members of the community usually helps there, too. :)
Thanks for explanation, 670px is important figure (definitely good to know:)), everything is clear now. Your mini-guide is very useful, mabye this should be good idea to include it into Style Guide? What do you think? I will some short remarks from my own recent experience:
1. In order to have this column % width system running you need to have % set-up in EVERY column (not just % width of image column, otherwise you will have problems in case of images you need to appear smaller than they are actually stored as original).
2. It seems possible to set up % also as a decimal number (e.g. exactly 13.43%).
You still currently see horizontal scrollbars on Contracts hub page, right? And what about Contractor Station Street Sizes (this was revised recently, already in % column width system now)? And if may I ask -> what's your internet browser & display resolution?
I am using Google Chrome and Full HD (1 920 x 1 080) ... so these tables take only less than 40% on my screen (both pages seems to page ok, no table scrollbars there). Btw., personally I don't like to see so much horizontal space wasted (1/2 of page completely empty) but I guess this is global MediaWiki setting? Or not?
Considering information elimination. Contractor Station Street Sizes page has plenty of free space (the could be added additional 2 columns without any problem). Contracts hub page uses all the table width, but is shouldn't be a problem to get into it everything without need for scrolling (I hope that conversion into % column width system will help!).
Or you think there is just too much information in that Contracts hub page tables? Well, I was actually considering to add 1 more column about accepted types of trains but I concluded that 'this would be too much' (ammount of information for 1 table). Current state looks to be optimal - as for ammount of information. Or you disagree? I tried to get some feed-back, I already opened a specific forum thread about changes on those 2 pages , but anyone from community here haven't bothered to reply (only feed-back I have got was just from you here). Previously, I opened a thread about extensions content update changes as well. Both have got 0 reply. Honestly, it's quite discouraging to see zero interest - looks like there isn't anybody else in community who cares? Or maybe no need for discussion?
You don't NEED to set the width of every column to control one column, but it can help.
I don't know whether MediaWiki will accept decimals for column width or not. Try it and tell us. :-)
I'm using Waterfox (64-bit version of Firefox). My laptop's monitor's resolution is set to 1366x768.
If you have horizontal space wasted, fix it by setting the table width in the first line. Use width:60% (or whatever) instead of width:100%.
I still see horizontal scrollbars on the Contracts page. Maybe you could remove the Shop column? I don't think it's really necessary on a page of general information about contractors. Every contractor has a link to his/her shop on the main page, anyway.
Don't be concerned yet about the lack of response to your request for feedback. Remember that most users are Americans, and Americans wake up during your mid-afternoon or evening. Also, it's the weekend, and many people don't come to the Wiki on weekends. Some don't even play on weekends, but simply send their trains on 2-days runs. Give them at least until Monday evening or Tuesday morning, U.S. time, before you start thinking that no one is interested.
I edited the Station Width page. I removed the second table and attached it to the first table as a footer. Look at the source code to see how easy it is. You just use the ! character to tell Wiki that it's a "header" row, and it treats it the way you want. That row never gets sorted, so it always stays there as a footer for you. Remember, though, that it's going to keep the same columns as you set at the top; that's why I put the colspan="4" in there. ;-)
3. I did not mean mean horizontal space INSIDE table, but general page layout. Let's take a look at screenshot of Contracts hub page to see what I mean (table takes < 40% of page's width and rest is wasted): http://is.gd/Contracts_screenshot
4. Because of need to set up every column width (ad bullet 1) I haven't revised that Contracts hub page yet (gonna take to some time to determine correct % values). As soon as it is completed I believe there will be any scroll-bars.
5. Feedback - Ok, I would like to believe I am just too sceptical :) .
1. Okay, if you played with it and that's what you found, then roll with it.
3. That extra space on the right is not available for tables. If you scroll to the top, you'll notice that's where the Wiki puts "Recent Activity" and other stuff. It doesn't use as much vertical space as the page, but it's still unavailable for tables.
Did you see my edit about the Station Widths page?
3. Yes, other Wiki's stuff takes additional 13%. With table set on 100% width it takes alltogehter ca 53% of space used and 47% is left empty (of 1920 px). Well, it's more like a statement that I am sorry to see that so much horizontal space is wasted...
Yes, I noticed (converting into footer). Well done, thank you.
The reason that space appears to be "wasted" is because Wiki wants to be compatible with as many forms of technology as possible. Yes, it's wasted to you and me. To someone with an old monitor that does only 680 across, it completely fills the screen. I agree that it's annoying not to be able to use more space, but that's the reason.
Yes, I understand the need to keep some reverse-compatibility very well (I would say it also helps to keep some reasonable accessibility from mobile devices). I just noticed that during past years has adaptive page layouts become quite popular (the page size is designed as flexible so its layout behaves depending on your current display parametres).
1. All column widths are now set-up as relative in %.
2. Thanks for your suggestion about Contractors' Shop Links. I had also similar feeling - these column appered to have quite disturbing effect on me :) . And I agree that it is not as important compared to other columns. I felt sorry to just remove it so I came up with sort of compromise. I kept the data however I moved them to last column and rewrote them into compact & reduced layout in order to take less space and don't disturb reader's attention. What do you think about this solution?
3. I allocated small part of table width as a reservoir for different browsers behaviour. I think that there shouldn't be finally any horizontal scroll-bars present. Is it ok by you? I even downloaded & installed your Waterfox browser to test if everything is allright :) .
4. Last of all: I am really sorry to report you that column % width configuration has ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on images. Conclusion? If you try to restrict big image proportions with column % configuration (instead of image px parameter), table will just completely ignore it and it will overflow :( ... It looks like I am running out of options. I prepared a demonstration revision to let you see what I have just described above (focus on Seasonal Contractors). Please take a look and tell me if you have any ideas?
I have my own Dropbox account but only way to exchange information is via Shared folder (you can invite me [connected => e-mail deleted]. Shared files can be modified only by you, other users can just view it.
Sorry for accusation but I have not ever noticed that they are 2 completely different Special Offers (at least your reply implies so). When I was at low-level I didn't have any special offer available designed for my level (everything was for high-level only).
That's one the hell of an important change. And I didn't notice any references on this change in the Game Patchlog, in TrainStation information groups discussions, nothing. Also here on Wiki is anything which would reveal this information.
I suggest that we should (at least) clearly differentiate these low-level SOs from normal SOs.
Well, this is very important issue and I suggest to give it as high priority & attention as possible (because current implementation here on Wiki produces really HUGE confusion).
Solution? Very simple. Keep conventional Special Offers exactly as they are. And just change these low level Special Offers to display as Low-level Special Offer (Low-level Vintage Offer respectively). And create categories & categorization with those 2 designations as well.
I agree those colours are cool. They're also pretty close to the blue in the Wikilinks. You and I would be okay, but it's not enough contrast for everyone to be okay.
If possible, I'd like to avoid using colours that are the same as, or similar to, the infoboxes we already use. I believe there's a black, a red, a green, and who knows what else? That's why I started with yellow. The yellow has even less contrast with the links than the blue does! LOL
I guess you haven't read this post yet: [trainstation.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:16706#3]
The "inner" purple, where the links are, needs to stay. I spent a few hours learning about colour and finding a shade that was reasonably pleasant and had sufficient contrast with the blue links. I chose the "outer" shade because it's a "web safe" colour, but that's really the only reason. If you think the page needs a brighter shade, then go for it.
...or you could go with Rastislav's idea of the "Key Facts" table. Whatever works for you guys.
I like the Key Facts table in the general layout but still thing either way there needs to color to help seperate the facts or info from the actual tables themselves. The inner color for the links is fine maybe a brighter purple for the headers.
Before I go changing colours on a bunch of infoboxes, I'd like to get feedback from more peeps on whether we should use them or use a different approach. If we're going to use them, I'd like to create templates for them so they're easier to update. If not, well, then I'd like not to spend a bunch of time on them. ;-)
In any case, I'll change the colour on the first one and you can tell me what you think.
Updated with three shades. Take your pick.
oh I'm flexable, you guys hae a good sence of what works and what doesn't. I am not opposed to re-design and coming up with a new standard for the whole site in terms of colors. The colors we have now were just trown together one infobox at a time. There wasn't a lot of looking at the bigger picture and eveything we wanted to or should color code.
What do you think about a category "TemplateData" (or something like this), for all templates that already have the TD-code implemented. There aren't any yet, but once we begin creating TemplateData for the templates, it would be a nice overview, which tempaltes are ready.
Category:Trainstation_Templates is used for our main templates. I would suggest, rather than adding a new category to all the templates that will be converted, that it might be better just to keep a log on the main category page of what has been converted.
How do we keep a log, just in the chat at the bottom? Or is there a cleaner method? Ideally, the log would be some kind of list we could edit, so we could keep it in alphabetical order for easier reference.