Okay, I no longer have any clue what's going on here.
First, I was creating a new design for the Themes and Extensions pages. I asked for input from the community. You provided said input in huge supply.
Next, we agreed on a bunch of things and disagreed on a bunch of things. We discussed a few things.
Meanwhile, I'm working diligently to get the page finished within the parameters we discussed, and suddenly, you plagiarise my entire workshop, create your own workshop, completely change almost everything I created, ignore my pleas to keep the page in line with Wikipedia's Manual of Style, and announce to the world that your workshop is "the new structure proposal", as if Pella never existed and never mattered.
I have no words to express the extreme level of frustration I'm experiencing right now, not to mention the feeling that my thoughts, my ideas, and my work are completely useless. If your intent was to circumvent the majority of the style guidelines and grab a bunch of glory, you might have told me that in the beginnning. That way, I could have spent the last month working on something worthwhile instead of completely wasting my time creating a huge piece of electronic trash.
Confused, indeed... I took a day out of Wiki to think about it and I considered several options which would be a base for offense or frustration. Honestly, I wasn't able to come up with anything. I could imagine reverting or wasting edits of others, changing pages in others user folders, taking ownership of any Wiki page, ignoring others idea or plaguasing work of others and many more. But I definitely haven't done anything of this sort!
Let's make a few things clear.
1. First about WorkshopExt located in my user folder. It seems that you completely misunderstood its purpose. It serves as a sandbox where I can test my ideas, create proof-of-concepts, try diffent approaches, to find out what & how works or does not and to see how its results would look like (wihout any imaganiation & guessing factors). What is definitely NOT its purpose is to serve as a proposal for Extensions page replacement. This should be obvious as it contains only a very small part from currently developed WorkshopE (= reduction to a few elemements selected to undergo testing).
2. The reason of including this WorkshopExt into your blog post discussion should be obvious as well. As the discussion is all about (well, at least it WAS) of new Extensions category page STRUCTURE (and nothing else), I presented the link there to let others see easily imagine how exactly would new structure looked like - if the page was split into 2 subpages as I proposed in my comment.
3. Taking ownership of your efforts. Sorry, but you are absolutely out of line. I would understand in case I created a new blog post or forum thread where I would present results of your work as my own work result (and conceal your efforts & own page at the same). Again, I have never done anything of this sort. At least, be so kind to scroll a few lines upwards from my comment and you will see all your work report & links there as part of your original blog post (about which was the entire discussion about). Not to mention that I linked the page in my user folder just to present its TOC structure.
4. Ignoring your ideas and Wiki conventions. Again, I would understand it if I was tempering with the live page. But on the page in my user folder which is just sandbox designed to test different ideas & approaches? And more to speak: on the page which is on-the-go? Are you serious?! I was just in the middle of work (as described in no. 1) and a lot of things were intended to be adjusted or changed. I planned to go through all this first before I would give you answers in Extensions forum thread (and I had prepared many questions about tags & elements in your current workshop as well). I am always opened to ideas & suggestions (especially those based on good arguments) and if I am proven to be wrong, I have no problem to admit it...
Wasted efforts & time - interesting story. That is something which I have to strongly disagree with, but maybe it's all about the point of view? If you see the accomplishment in having your page edits & revisions on live page ASAP, then be my guest. But honestly this is exactly what I see just as a MINOR by-product. Here is the list of MAJOR things which really matter and which all have been accomplished in recent weeks:
1. Dual-cost table layout.
2. Footnotes and referencing system.
3. Collapsible tables.
4. Tables nested into collapsible tables.
5. Multiple tables nesting.
6. Solution how to deal with unconfirmed data.
8. General approaches how to organize & display information (e.g. Quick Facts box).
9. Consistent system on columns sizes adjustment (at least I learned myself to do this in a few seconds instead of labouring with it hours and hours as on the beginning - thanks to that awesome Chrome extension)
10. Consistent system on aligning values.
11. Refining & advancing ideas on which to base consistent conventions which have not been previosuly set-up (however they should be further advanced to include them into Style Guide - otherwise they can end forgotten later on).
12. Learning a great deal from MediaWiki pages research.
... and many many more things ...
Of course, some things from the list eventually not make it into final version, but I wouldn't definitely consider them being waste of time - they can always be stored for later use (e.g. as pages in your user folder) and be invaluable in some other future projects.
Personally, I also learned a lot about how to proceed when developing something new - especially if it should be major improvement to something with already exists (and it took me really some time before I even started to realizing the following 3 paragraphs):
1. First of all, if you have already clear idea about texts & graphics which are missing on original page, let's start with those. Incomes of this first step (new texts & images) can be uploaded into live page continously - as it brings no benefit to wait all the time until everything is finished. Can? Well, merely should ... because it also provides motivating feelings of some accomplishments which were already achieved.
2. In next step move forward to Analysis. The perfect ground for it is transferring a small pattern of game-data (especially those with different structure and/or layout) and start to create proof-of-concepts to design a new layout and structure. Everything should be considered carefully here (e.g. what is purpose of concrete elements) and try to see things in many different angles and in context. In this phase, it is very beneficial if you can get as much opinions and feed-back from community as possible. This really helps a lot to prevent going into dead-ends and your efforts wasted in the future (and not only on current page but on other future projects as well).
3. And finally, when everything is concluded and approved ... move to last final step: to build-up roof & chimney => which means filling-in all remaining game data into the tables. It's a pity you decided to hold on more straighforward approach and rush things from step 2 so much ... in order to have everything completed and live ASAP. Now I can see that skipping (more or less) entirely analytical step 2 caused several drawbacks. And I have to admit that in this one (and only!) point happened that some of your time & efforts were really wasted - e.g. creating specific sorting value for each game-data cell - but without considering first for which is that table sorting good for. I hope that you will think about this as I don't wish you any unnecessary reworks just because of skipped analysis.
To sum it up, I can't speak of any of my time here as wasted. Yes, there were some moments I felt Extensions forum thread is making me tired and lacking any output. But I definitely can't refuse to see it gave and learned me a lot. Furthermore, as far as I browsed through entire Wiki's content, I found the Extension page as the most complex and difficult topic dealt with here on wiki, so let's look on the bright side! It's the greatest challenge you could ever have - to achieve reconstructing such complex and sophisticated data into effective & user-friendly layout and structure. And it has very strong 'blueprint effect' => all that things I learned in recent weeks come very handy when editing other pages ... I already feel to be everything easy as a pie now thanks to the hard Extensions school (difference compared to beginnings is HUGE!).
On the other hand, I find myself cheated and I don't see any reason why to continue now as it is clearly visible that you intend to have the Extensions revision project only for yourself. Even more, all your rude posts, offenses and false accusations don't motivate me to continue on this wiki any further. Perhaps I shouldn't spend here more than a few minutes of a day and attend to some more meaningful matters instead - such as this recently completed TranStation Mobile Access guide . Anyway I wish you only good ... and I hope that some day you eventually discover that what really matters in learning you like so much is having feed-back, discussion and flow of ideas (as even very critical ones are much better compared to have anything).
I don't know whether you'll read this or not. I don't know whether you care anymore about anything I have to say. I'll just write it, and whatever happens, happens.
First and foremost, I screwed up.
Why? Ultimately, the cause was a lack of communication. That may be difficult to believe, given the size of the blog thread for the Extensions page, yet I assure you, that is what happened. We (yes, "we") failed to communicate with each other on the things that led to me misunderstanding something and blowing up about it.
1. Let me begin at the place where you ended. I do not now--nor have I ever--thought of the Extensions page as "my page" or its revision as "my project". In the corporate world, projects work better if one person leads and coordinates (the project, not necessarily the people). The same is true in Wikia. You stated that the Extensions page is the most complex page on this Wiki. If that's true, then consider the utter chaos that would ensue if everyone working on the project simply edited the live page with whatever ideas they had. It would be very difficult to tell what was happening, and the potential for conflicting edits is horrifying.
Even if all the work happened in a user sandbox, as we're doing with this page, the effect would be similar. To prevent this, major rework projects on this and other Wikis tend to have one person who is the project lead. Typically, this is an informal title, and no one ever uses it, yet everyone knows that ideas and feedback should happen where that person is sure to see them. In most such cases, the project lead is the person who stepped up and said, "Why don't we fix <whatever>?", and that person typically makes all the edits on the working page. Once the page goes live, then everyone edits, as usual.
No one questioned Katat0nyx when he took the lead on redesigning the locomotive template or accused him of owning the page. No one questioned Mhommer when he took the lead on adding Game Updates information to pages everywhere, or accused him of owning that project. In both of those cases, one person stepped up, produced an initial product, requested feedback, and responded to that feedback, all while remaining the primary author of the working material.
Exactly the same is true with me and the Extensions page. Many people noticed the need to update not only the data, but also the page itself. Only one person stepped up and said, "Okay, let's do this", and produced an initial working page. I never announced, "I am the Project Lead for the Extensions page, and I'll be the only one making edits to the page until it goes live." Why? Because I didn't need to. It just happened naturally. In fact, I never even thought of myself in those terms. I thought of myself simply as a guy who saw a need and decided to fill it for the good of the community.
I also never announced, "I will accept no feedback during this project, and every idea on the final page will be my own." Why? Because that's not the way Wikia works. Not only did I never announce that, I never thought it. The evidence of this fact is abundant. How many things on the working page came from your ideas? How many things there are things that I said I would prefer not to see, but included because it was better for the page and for the community? One good example is your idea to right-align text in columns that usually have numbers.
A better example is the use of horizontal lines in dual-cost rows. I liked them. You liked them. Katat0nyx didn't like them. I removed them. I got feedback from a non-user. He didn't like them. Now they are gone, and we made other changes that removed all of the confusion those rows created. If the statement, "it is clearly visible that you intend to have the Extensions revision project only for yourself" were true, text in numeric columns still would be left-aligned, and those horizontal lines still would be there. Since those things (and a bunch of others that weren't my ideas) DID change, I think it's extremely safe to say that the "clearly visible" statement is clearly untrue.
You also wrote, "I hope that some day you eventually discover that what really matters in learning you like so much is having feed-back, discussion and flow of ideas". This statement implies that you read my profile page. It also shows that you didn't understand it. Discussion and the flow of ideas are two of the most important things in the world to me. I have a roommate who absolutely refuses to discuss things and share ideas. By his own admission, almost 100% of his conversations involve nothing more than "small talk". He asked to be my friend, and I spent a day attempting to converse with him. At the end of the day, I informed him that all of my friends became my friends in part because they enjoy discussing things with me, and that he was welcome to be my roommate. I thought I made this clear on my profile page, so I cannot even imagine what makes you think I see no value in feeedback.
Wow, that part is longer than I expected.
As for the rest, I'm going to skip around a bit instead of addressing everything from top to bottom.
2. You mentioned more than once that I was interested in getting the new page live ASAP. Two things about that.
Well, yes. Of course. Aren't you? Otherwise, what's the point? The live page is full of unconfirmed and missing data, and it's messy to use. The sooner we get the new page up and running, the better for the community.
From what I can tell, you had this 1-2-3 order in your head of how things should go. You were on step 2, and I was working step 3. I even complained a couple of times about my lack of progress on step 3 stuff. This gave you the impression that I was trying to rush the project just to get something up there. What you didn't know was, I did not skip step 2. I skipped steps 1 AND 2, because I didn't know they were there.
You're a programmer. That's what you do. To you, steps 1 and 2 are as natural as breathing. I am not a programmer. I have a tiny (**TINY**) bit of experience in programming, and I learned Wikitext fairly quickly, but I'm not accustomed to this big process you had in mind. I tackled this project the only way I knew how: I dove in and started building it. The biggest thing on the current live page is the data, so, guess what? I started transferring data. After this, you began step 1. I was a bit annoyed with this, but only because I believed that the working page should be complete and ready to go before making any of it live. The page should go from old to new in one huge edit. I viewed your input as valuable, yet I sometimes got frustrated with what I considered to be interruptions.
Whenever I could, I continued my work on step 3. Meanwhile, you started step 2. Since step 2 is the biggest, longest, and most difficult, and because it includes most of the changes from the old page to the new page, the "interruptions" were more extreme. I got almost nothing accomplished on step 3 for over a week, because I was dealing with all the issues you kept raising. You were doing things right, because steps 1 and 2 are important and necessary. If done well, steps 1 and 2 can save huge amounts of time during step 3. It didn't occur to you to say, "Hey! Stop! Wait a minute! Why are you working on step 3? What about steps 1 and 2?", probably because they come naturally to you, and possibly because you assumed that I was aware of them and chose to skip them. Had I known about them in advance, or had you said, "Hey, I realise you're not a programmer. I've found that this 1-2-3 process works well", I would have recognised their value and happily would have engaged in that process with you.
You wrote, "It's a pity you decided to hold on more straighforward approach and rush things from step 2 so much." As you can see by now, I made no such decision. The word, decision, implies a choice--and I never had one. It was impossible for me to "choose" to rush step 2 without first knowing about step 2. Skipping those steps was less obvious with the Themes page because it's small and simple. With Extensions, we needed them. It's a pity I didn't learn about them in time to avoid causing you frustration or to avoid blowing up at you and hurting you.
In your defence, you stated that you learned about the 1-2-3 process during this whole experience. You couldn't tell me about it at the beginning because you hadn't figured it out yet. That's a big part of what I meant about steps 1 and 2 being as natural to you as breathing. They are so natural that you never thought about them; you just did them. Only now can you tell me about them, and that's the real pity.
3. The biggest misunderstanding happened when you created a separate workshop to test some things.
You started doing things we hadn't discussed, or hadn't discussed in detail. That's okay, because it's your workshop, and because you wanted to assemble something so we'd have something to discuss. While I understand that now, at the time I got the impression you were running away on your own.
You worked very quickly in there, much faster than I could do the same things. Again, that's great! When it happened, though, I built on the previous assumption by thinking that you wanted to get things done and posted live before I had time to object.
You inserted un-Wiki formatting after we had discussed it previously. A few days before, I had mentioned that the Wiki's MOS doesn't like to see things like 2nd and 3rd, but prefers 2nd and 3rd. Even so, you added the "sup" tags to your page and mentioned that you had done so in a public summary of changes. I took all of this to mean that you wanted them in there, no matter what, and that you were going to make sure they stayed, no matter what.
You reworked the structure to prepare for a split category and posted the proposal for the structure to get the community's input. Again, good. I felt slighted because you and I had not yet come together on what to propose. I had some differing ideas about order and names of sections, among other things. I am NOT saying that we should have used my ideas instead of yours. (If you doubt this, refer again to section 1.) I AM saying that I thought we ought to have discussed things and reached agreement first before presenting things to everyone else. After making the first three erroneous assumptions, the fourth was the "obvious" conclusion that you were trying to take over the project.
All of these were failings of communication on my part. When I was unsure of the purpose of a separate working page, I failed to ask. When I had different ideas about how things should look, I failed to mention them. I did post something about the "sup" tags, but I wasn't very pleasant. When you posted a proposed new structure, I should have recognised that you were helping the project by taking away from me the burden of creating to be proposed, and I simply should have provided my input then.
Instead, I screwed up.
You already stated that you have no further interest in working with me. I understand, and I don't blame you. You also stated that some of the things I wrote in anger make you want to leave the Wiki. I ask you to reconsider.
I was the arsehole in this situation. I didn't just screw up, I screwed up huge. I alienated the one person on here with whom I've worked the most and from whom I've received the most beneift. Even though I never thought I was "owning" a page, two people have stated that's exactly what they saw. Therefore, this choice is clear.
You should stay. I'm leaving the TrainStation Wiki. I've lost all credibility, anyway, so no one would trust me if I stayed. If you wish to continue in Workshop E and improve the page for the communiy, feel free. If you wish to cease work on a new Extensions page and hope someone else comes along and finishes the job, feel free. If you wish to curse my name to the hills, feel free. You've been right this whole time, so I'm sure that whatever decision you make now will be right, too.
Well, obviously, I did not leave the TrainStation Wiki. Kata0nyx asked me to stay, and I have. However, I have done nothing on the Extensions project except for two small edits just to keep things consistent.
I made some decisions in the last few weeks since I wrote the "Confused" post. While the details of the decisions are private, one of the results is that I can definitely assure you that nothing like that ever will happen again.
I very much want to continue working on this project, and I very much want you to continue working on it with me. I sincerely hope you can find a way to forgive my mistake, and that we can move forward, together. :-)
Thanks for your message and excuse me that I didn't manage to reply before Christmas as I originally anticipated. Well, I am still here... I just still feel a little overwhelmed and sorry about what happened. It seems that it was one huge misunderstandment. I would be happy to finish the original project together, but currently I don't have enough time & energy. Honestly, I would say I was previously putting too much efforts & time into it. Aparently (much) more than I am / was able to afford.
I would like to thank you for collaboration on Extensions project. I really appreciated our exchange of ideas. Please feel free to finish / conclude the Extensions project without me. My greatest obstacle is that all the necessary communication when taking part in team project requires a lot of time. Still ... in our case were all the time & efforts inputed just not enough (as I believe that the lack of communication was the primary reason for what happened).
I've also been working on this page, although all of my work has been offline. Updating the page with new information is only part of this project. Several contributors here also have been working to make the entire site more consistent. Since the Extensions page is inconsistent with everything else on the site, we are reformatting the entire page.
So, while we definitely appreciate your effort and intent, and while the page does look better than it did, all of your work will be gone in a day or two, and it will be replaced by a completely different format. Had I noticed your edits sooner, I would have told you sooner. My apologies.
Hello, thanks for explanation. Please, give me a moment to reply. I am now just saving into that page (Extensions) information about on new depot extensions before I buy them in game. I will answer you afterwards.
Actually, you did a couple of things on the page that we like, and we decided to "borrow" those ideas. On top of that, you have some of the information that we're missing. That means your work was not completely wasted, because much of what you did will be in the final version.
We still want to reformat everything to increase consistency on the website. It will look different when we're done, but you definitely made a difference. Thank you! :D
Oh, and take your time. As I mentioned before, I prefer to work offline as much as possible, then copy and paste into the site. That way, I'm only troubleshooting online, instead of workng. When we do replace the formatting, all of your information will be there. Relax and enjoy the game! ;)
Well, I am really taking lot of time, sorry ... too much things to do. I am now compiling new build of 'TrainStation Helper' application focused on gold exchange with friends and train fleet management ... my main beta tester is waiting inpatiently for new application's release -> so I am now focusing on this one :) .
Well, here are some photos & short introduction info about that app. However, everything there is ca 1 month old -> a lot has changed from that time! Application looks much better now ... at least that's what I hope :)